Announcer: Welcome to behind the mic presented in part by CAPS, the Canadian Association of Professional Speakers. This podcast is dedicated to recognizing excellence in speaking through fascinating stories and interesting conversations with the people who make the speaking world come alive. Now please welcome your Behind the Mic hosts Roxanne Durhodge and Carl Richards.

Roxanne Derhodge: Everyone, it's Roxanne Durhodge. Welcome back to Behind the Mic. Today, I'm privileged to be spending time with Denis Boudreaux. And I just screwed up his name, Denis Boudreaux.

Denis Boudreau: That's all good.

Roxanne Derhodge: And my amazing co host, Carl Richards. So today we're going have an amazing conversation about inclusivity and communication and culture. So Carl, I'll let you tell everyone a little bit more about Denis.

Carl Richards: Well, sure, Roxanne. Denis is a consultant, trainer, coach and speaker specializing in inclusive leadership and inclusive communication. He works with leaders and executives who are no longer willing to overlook disability inclusion and want to transform their leadership approach from inclusive ish to truly inclusive by championing accessibility. He has helped leading brands like Netflix, Salesforce, Victoria's Secret, and many more embed disability inclusion into their business strategies, empowering them to break down barriers and create deeper, more meaningful connections with their target audiences while also meeting legal obligations. And he's a published author.

Carl Richards: Denis, welcome to the podcast.

Denis Boudreau: Thank you for having me.

Carl Richards: So what was the journey that led you into doing this kind of work, doing DEI type work?

Denis Boudreau: It goes back twenty five years for me. I'm a web developer, web designer by trade. And in the February, I was asked to figure out a way to build a website that blind people could use. And I had no idea that was even a thing. And I discovered an entire world I had no idea about in terms of discrimination against people with disabilities on the internet in general, it blew my mind and it became a passion of mine.

Denis Boudreau: I've done that ever since. Like I've researched and figured out ways to create websites that are accessible to everyone. And that led me from one project to another into building a business and then doing what I do today, which is all the things that you've described in the introduction.

Carl Richards: And if we're thinking twenty five years ago, this being recorded in 2025, websites were fairly new twenty five years ago. It's not like we had trailblazed and we had a deep history of online presence. This was new, brand new.

Denis Boudreau: This was entirely brand new. The first official website that has been recorded in history officially, I think was HP in 1994. Ewlett Packard in 1994 was the first commercial website. The very first one was in 1989 at CERN, a research center in Europe. So a couple years after that, of course, the international standards around accessibility for websites came together in 1999.

Denis Boudreau: So a couple years before that, people started working, researching what could be done to make online technologies more accessible to people that are blind, that are deaf, have cognitive disabilities or mobility impairments or whatnot. So I was lucky. I mean, year after these documents were published, I found those and it just opened a world of opportunities for me. So yes, that's where it comes from. But yeah, it was pretty early on in the whole history of the web as we know it.

Roxanne Derhodge: So you've seen basically the development of this field from, I would say, inception because there was not much that that exists back then. So when you kind of look at what has happened in the last twenty five years, like when someone comes to you now compared to twenty five years ago, what, you know, if you were to look at the average website now, Denis, do you see a lot of inclusivity in the the frontward facing kind of website for small, medium and large companies?

Denis Boudreau: You know, Roxanne, I really, really wish I could tell you yes. I really do. But unfortunately, no. As it turns out, it was much easier to have an accessible web in twenty five years because there was only someone who was mostly text. And maybe was that you could describe didn't text.

Denis Boudreau: It was pretty straightforward. So as technology kept stacking on top of each other, web became the complex thing that it is today, challenges have just kept coming up in terms of inclusivity in different ways. So no, it hasn't really gone a lot better. We make progress on different things and then new technologies come in and then they bring new challenges. We're always kind of playing catch up with the barriers that technology introduces.

Denis Boudreau: And there's a great association in The United States called WebAIM, Web Accessibility in Mind. Every year they do a an analysis of the top 1,000,000 homepages around the world, like the top 1,000,000 popular websites. And they run automated testing on their homepages to see just how well they're doing. And the latest review was in 2024, so just a couple months ago. 25.9% of those websites did not meet basic accessibility guidelines that are needed for minimal accessibility.

Denis Boudreau: So there's a lot of improvement still. But that being said, most big organizations are aware that there are regulations and laws and obligations around accessibility and they do some things. So people work towards that. So every year it gets a little better, but at a very, very, very slow pace. So, you know, you have to be patient.

Carl Richards: What is the cost or what's the investment for companies? And I guess it maybe depends on the size of the company, but what are some of the basic costs for companies to make sure that their websites are fully accessible for folks?

Denis Boudreau: In terms of cost per se, the way that we measure that typically is to say, you know, if you have a team that knows what they're doing, you can expect a five to 10% additional cost to actually make that happen. There's an entire business case around that, of course, that we can get into if you want to as to why that's actually a smart thing to do, and something that is really good for your bottom line. But for a team that is new to the topic, then of course, it can be a lot more than that. So it's really hard to cost how much things actually are measured financially, because it depends on the skill set and the people, the team's knowledge of how to do these things. But it's all about, oftentimes it's all about just relearning some of the techniques and the tools that you use as a designer or developer or content creator to work in a slightly different way that will be more inclusive of more people out there in the audience.

Roxanne Derhodge: Let's talk let's back up, because I think let's when we tend to think about inclusivity in Denis' world, when we are where we need to be with inclusive culture, define what inclusive culture means to you, Denis, because clearly, I mean, you've been at this, like you said, and so lucky to start at such a primary age. But you must have a perspective of where, like you said, we're not here now, but you wish we were. What's your ideal hope around inclusivity and culture?

Denis Boudreau: Ideal hope. I think we need to begin by framing the conversation a little bit. Whether you're thinking about The States or you're thinking about Canada, statistics from Statistics Canada in here, or the CDC in The United States, define the number of people with disabilities around twenty seven, twenty eight percent of the population, right? So we need to start there. People think that disabilities is something that why should we care?

Denis Boudreau: There's only so many people that are affected by this. The reality is it's more than one out of four out of every one of us. And the main reason why people typically don't realize this is because eighty percent of those disabilities are invisible. As an example for myself, you can't tell that I'm color blind, but color blindness affects my reality every single day in many ways. My ability to perceive colors, to understand messages, to decode information based on color, that's pretty hard for me.

Denis Boudreau: I am also someone who has a really strong trace of ADHD and autism, which you can't tell either, but it affects the way that I process information in general. And that too, can create barriers, creates barriers for me regularly. People like me that either share the same kind of conditions that I have, or that have learning disabilities, for instance, or had an accident and have a traumatic brain injury, or have chronic pain, or this or that. There's a bunch of conditions that affect how you interact with the outside world. 28% ish is pretty much where what we all align on.

Denis Boudreau: And those numbers are all very conservative. When you start digging into them, you realize it's actually probably a lot more than that. And that's just people who have those disabilities. It's not including people that are older, aging, getting older, either in the workforce or seniors, and how aging actually affects their experiences as well. So when you start compounding all of that, it's more than a majority of people that actually fits fit that bill one way or another.

Denis Boudreau: So what that means for me basically is that in the workplace, as an example, again, if we go by statistics alone, in the workplace, it's recognized widely that about twenty percent of the workforce has some kind of neurodivergent trait. Again, it might be something about ADHD or learning disabilities or this or that, things you wouldn't really tell. But people are typically identified or labeled as being incompetent, lazy, disorganized, this or that, because others sort of look at them and say, they're not really doing what they should be doing. They didn't read the report. They're always a little scattered.

Denis Boudreau: There's this, there's that. And nobody ever questions the fact that maybe the reason why they struggle or why they don't do the things that you expect them to do is because the environment in which we all operate is just not adapted to their reality. And we're asking them to fit into a certain mold, while in reality, if we just were a bit more flexible in how that environment operates, they would be able to thrive more and perform more and contribute more to the success of the business. So that's what I work towards. That's what I help organizations do, is figure out either internally, how they can identify where their gaps are, or if you'll pardon the ableist term here, the blind spots that they might have, so that they can work and process that differently.

Denis Boudreau: Or if they're looking for ways to communicate with the outside world to sell more of those products, sell more of those services, or be recognized as a brand who actually cares about all of their market, then I can help them with the communication on their websites or their communications in general, so that they approach it in a way that will not alienate anybody or that will not, without even realizing it, insult or other people that are not like them.

Carl Richards: So with those numbers in mind, Denis, and thank you for the deep dive and the share on that, With those numbers in mind, it sounds like there's a lot of us who fit into being in some capacity, you know, fitting under the DEI umbrella. So with those numbers in mind, how easy is it, or how challenging is it for companies and organizations to be 100% compliant when it comes to DEI?

Denis Boudreau: It's very hard. I've yet to meet a company or an organization that is 100% compliant with all of those things. It just doesn't happen. There's too much complexity, there are too many moving parts, there's too much going on to be able to do that. The goal, I believe, is not to be 100% compliant.

Denis Boudreau: The goal is to always work towards getting a little better and learning from your mistakes and trying to not repeat those mistakes and get a little smarter about that in whatever area of your business or communication it might be, for instance. Even the most, even some of the most organized or dedicated brands that I've worked with will always struggle one way or another, either because part of their workforce understands it and work in a certain direction, and then new people come in or other people come in and they contribute to the project and then they mess things up without knowing it, Or because someone at some point says something and they don't realize what they actually said was hurtful for some people, and then it backlashes into something else. There's always something that happens, right? So it's not so much about that. It's really about what can we do on a regular basis, day to day basis, to constantly move the needle a little bit forward and create a more inclusive space as a result of that.

Roxanne Derhodge: You know, what I find fascinating is that when you talk about what percentage of it was invisible of the 2880%.

Denis Boudreau: Okay.

Roxanne Derhodge: So you think about it, right? Like obviously I work with mental health and mental well-being and resilience. So a lot of people are not coming forward when they're applying for a job. They're not saying, I've got the ADD. I might be a little bit on the spectrum or whatever.

Roxanne Derhodge: They're trying to just go, I've got the skills, I've got the education, I've done all these things in my career, I'm going forward. I apply, I do the interview, I get the job. Most people aren't telling you what they're bringing. So in in my world, it's oftentimes you're right. It's showing up as this person is not being compliant.

Roxanne Derhodge: They're not taking direction. They're not getting along with the team. Like so not knowing what that company generally has. Sometimes the companies don't know that they might have a diverse element in that room, other than they have to assume that 28% is there's some kind of difference and drill down further, right?

Denis Boudreau: Right. I mean, most organizations have these inclusive hiring policies, right? There is a conscious effort in hiring in the diversity pool, let's call it this way. So if you do, and if you are actually making actual effort in terms of hiring in that way, of course, you're going to have a portion of your workforce that will fit that particular bill, obviously. You're absolutely right in terms of disclosing or masking, really the opposite of it, someone's conditions.

Denis Boudreau: Why would anyone want to disclose information like that when every single day they're being reminded that they're not normal, that this thing is not normal, that what is normal is this, and this doesn't work for me. Why would I say, oh, by the way, the reason why I struggle is because of this? People don't feel safe to disclose these things. People don't trust the environment in which they are, and therefore they just keep that for themselves. And it creates this sort of vicious circle of continually being feeling like this is not either the right place for me, or I just have to pretend as much as I can until one day maybe they fire me.

Denis Boudreau: This is how a lot of people go through their days because that trust is in there. And again, the idea is to work with these leaders, these executives in those organizations and help them see things in a different way and work through different types of skill sets that they can improve upon to think more inclusively and to lead more inclusively, create an environment where those people, their team members, people in their workplace can actually find the accommodations that they need so that they can perform at their best and contribute fully to the business and its success.

Carl Richards: So with that in mind then, with this, especially when it comes to new hires or really making sure that we're rounding up the team effectively, how does it affect probationary periods? Are we finding that they have to be, in certain cases, they're longer? Are there things that need to be taken into account that maybe we weren't taking into account before?

Denis Boudreau: Oh, my camera just disappeared for a second there. I'm not sure what happened.

Carl Richards: We'll wait.

Denis Boudreau: Yeah. I'm working on it. I'm there we go. Not sure what happened. Okay.

Denis Boudreau: Yeah. For prob yeah. For probations and stuff. Yes and no, I would say, because if people aren't going to disclose, then they're just hoping for the best, right? They're hoping that whatever challenge they might have in this particular environment will not come across as something obvious that might work against them.

Denis Boudreau: So some people will work extra hard to try and compensate. Others will do what they can to fly under the radar in a lot of situations. But if your only metric to determine whether unless someone has the job after like a three month probation is whether they're performed, Those people are probably the ones that are more easy to just scan at the end because they weren't quite the fit that you wanted to, but you'll never really know why that was. And if you never ask yourself the question why that person did not perform as much as we were hoping, then of course it's going to be their fault. You're never going to consider that it might have been the fault of your environment, for instance.

Denis Boudreau: But there's a concept in accessibility that is pretty prevalent. It's the difference between the medical model and the social model of accessibility. And the medical model basically is the one that most of us know. You are blind, you have a problem. You have to figure out a way to work past that problem, because otherwise you can't contribute, you can't be a part of this.

Denis Boudreau: And you'll do that by getting a guide dog or service dog or McCain or this or that. You'll figure something to fix your problem. And then there's a social model where we say the person in the right environment can do whatever they need to do. And that's the model that I subscribe to, that's the model that these laws around the world subscribe to, which is to say that a person who is blind, for instance, no matter how hard that might be for our listeners to wrap their heads around that, but a person who is blind can absolutely use a website without any single barrier or problem if the website is built with accessibility in mind. Because that person obviously doesn't use a mouse and they're not pointing and clicking on a screen because that would be kind of pointless, pun intended, if they have their own technologies.

Denis Boudreau: If someone comes in and they control their keyboard, can use, they can type with their keyboards because tech we can all learn to use a keyboard, we don't need to look at it to type, neither do blind people. And if they have software that will translate the content of the website in a screen reader where they can listen to the website through audio, or have the information transferred over to a braille display and they can read it with their fingers, they can be just as efficient as you and I can be to begin with. But we need to recognize that the problem is not in their disability, but the environment that fails to accommodate for that disability. So when you have that shift in terms of mindset in the workplace, for instance, all of a sudden, the person who never reads the report is not the problem. The problem is that we ask people to read reports instead of giving them a different format that might be more digestible for them.

Denis Boudreau: And if you give me, like, I'll come back to my example for me. If you send me a financial report for the last quarter, for instance, and everything is pie charts and graphs with shades of colors, and you have no other indication than the color itself for me to understand what data point relates to what, no matter how long I will look at that thing, I will not suddenly become a way able to differentiate between orange and dark yellow. I can't do that. So the format is the problem, and not the problem. Give me the information in a format that I can understand and process.

Denis Boudreau: I'll be able to do that just as easily as others do. So there's a shift there, right? Like you have to shift differently and you have to accept that maybe you are you, maybe the organization is the problem. And if we address that, not only will we make it better or more usable or accessible for those people, but maybe others will benefit from the ripple effect of having a broader perspective on how we address those things.

Roxanne Derhodge: So to really look at neurodiversity from a different lens in that creativity. An example I think of, Denise, you're not seeing something visually, a lot of people are better at hearing and synthesizing information. Finding becomes on the innovation and creativity and bottom line. If we're saying 28% is the reality, right? Broad brush, whether or not, in not adapting your environment, by actually understanding that you're going to get diversity from the top end, if you were to apply that from everything from screening all the way through, you might be able to get someone into positions that would be probably 150% productivity because you're fitting that person even that much more to a particular position.

Roxanne Derhodge: The bottom line could be really blown up.

Denis Boudreau: It's absolutely true. And the sad part is we can't ever really know what that could look like because these opportunities really rarely present themselves, where someone can really go to the full extent of their potential, because the environment actually is adapted to that reality. What we do know, however, is that if you have a team of 100 people, and you hire people that look like you, think like you, act like you, you're going to have a bunch of people who think like you, act like you, and look like you. So if all of a sudden you have this product that you want to sell to the population, and everybody in your business, let's say is white and North American and English speaking, and you're trying to sell this product to all of the Canadian population with all of this variety, how can you possibly think that you're going to appeal to all these different cultures, all these different ways of thinking, with this one narrow mindset of a white North American English speaking person? If you hire people with a different set of backgrounds and diversity, and they all can contribute, and they're all welcome to contribute fully to the conversation.

Denis Boudreau: Some people will raise flags when you have this great idea that would be so awesome for the ad that you're putting together. And someone can say, you know what, in my culture, if you say this is going be very offensive for that reason, or if someone with a disability says, if you say something like this, it's going to be pursued a certain way. And you don't do that, you listen to what they're saying and you don't do that thing. That's one less hurdle that you might have to deal with because you would have offended that particular group. And especially in the world we live in today, right?

Denis Boudreau: It only takes a couple of people who agree with this one angry tweet or this one angry Facebook post to get into this storm of that particular storm. You all know what I'm talking about. Where all of a sudden you have to deal with this backlash, PR backlash, just because of this one basic thing that nobody even noticed in the first place, because we were all coming at it from this angle and we completely were oblivious to all the other subtleties that come with it. So diversity has that perspective as well that it brings, right? So there's the question of how far can a person can go in terms of their own progression, but also how far can the association or the organization can go if you have multiple voices contributing to the idea before you launch it, so that it does reach broader.

Denis Boudreau: That's the hard part because most people, and it's human nature to do that, it's not people that are bad or mean or whatever, but you are, we're all more comfortable with people that kind of look like us. It's like it's more familiar. And oftentimes what we see is that for two people that have the exact same skill set and competencies, the one that looks more like us is likely going to be the one to get the job. But when you compare that person and what that person brings to what you already have on your bench, maybe taking the one that feels like an outlier will be a better contribution to broaden your perspective as an organization who wants to do business with all of the population, not just the ones who actually look like us.

Carl Richards: We're all members of course of an organization that has been through and is going through like a lot of organizations transition into trying to make sure that we are as inclusive as possible. What are some tips or suggestions that you would suggest to other organizations to embrace DEI or to make sure they are more inclusive for either their members or even newer members that are coming in? And it's not to put our organization under the microscope, but what are some things within other organizations that you would say, hey, have you thought about this? Would you check, maybe check this out?

Denis Boudreau: The first thing I want to say is that the worst thing people can do right now is look at what's happening in The States and say, Oh, here's an example to follow. Because no matter what executive orders are being signed down south, that doesn't change the fact, that doesn't change the reality that people who fit the description of a person with a disability or someone who's whatever that is, really. We can go in bunch of different directions with this. But anything that doesn't fit that, again, that profile of this is what we want people to look like to be acceptable, we're going to find out very quickly that this is going to backlash on those who are pushing that agenda down south. One of the things that we know again, data here again, one of the things that we know about that is that when you ask Americans, for instance, how of you believe that disability and diversity are good things for society and something that we should promote?

Denis Boudreau: 82% of people say that they believe in that thing. But they also believe that only 55% of other people feel the same way. So there's a huge disconnect between what people individually feel and how much they feel that others actually think the same thing as they do, which explains a lot about what's happening in The States right now. Because most people are thinking, yeah, most people don't think that way, so I guess I might as well just follow along. It doesn't really hurt me all that much until of course they realize that they lose their farms, lose this, they lose that.

Denis Boudreau: Like we've heard all those stories already. So when it starts hitting you directly, you realize that, oh wait, there's a consequence to that choice. And it can only backlash at some point. I mean, they're pushing that pretty far right now. Pendulum swing, It's going to come back.

Denis Boudreau: Look, we just have to be patient about this. And so as an association, a lot of associations are probably very sensitive to even the idea of speaking about diversity, equity and inclusion right now because of that. But the reality is, if you want your members to stay within the organization, if you want people to feel like they can actually raise their hand to volunteer, they have to feel like they belong. Within CAPS, for instance, this is one of our pillars, belonging. And a huge part of being successful with belonging is for people to actually feel they're welcomed here.

Denis Boudreau: And it's pretty hard to feel welcomed if, and I'm not saying that we are in any association, it would be pretty hard for someone who doesn't fit that description again, to feel like they belong in an organization where everyone has a certain profile, a certain look, certain skin tone or whatever. So I think that diversity helps with that. And if you want to promote, and if you want to recruit more members, because we all know that associations tend to all the membership tends to be smaller and smaller year after year, because people tend to not join associations as much as maybe my generation did, Gen Xers did. Whether we're talking millennials or Gen Zs, they don't tend to join as much. They're more like Randall Craig, so not to name him in our association, is talking about joiners versus nibblers.

Denis Boudreau: I'm from a generation of joiners. Like we join stuff, we like it, we go, we come in, we contribute. Younger generations are more like nibblers, like they'll take what they need and then they'll go. So if you want them to actually join, they need to feel like this reflects their values. And one of the very strong values that younger generations have, that even Gen Xers don't have all that much, is this idea of equity, justice, and diversity.

Denis Boudreau: So if you want your organization to remain relevant, you have to have something about some kind of a policy around disability equity and inclusion to make sure that people feel like they're welcome, that their friends would be welcomed, and that they don't have to be ashamed to be part of this either boy club or white club or whatever that thing would look like, depending on what image you project. So that would be my main recommendation for now. Be very careful about which side you, which group you side with, because we will remember afterwards when all of this is done, we'll remember who went where. And you just have to think about companies like Target, Tesla. Look at the companies that are tanking right now.

Denis Boudreau: That's a direct consequence of their choices. You know, we'll remember the Costco's were doing great. We'll remember the Ben and Jerry's are doing great for diversity, that doubled down on those things. And we see their numbers skyrocket. And then we see cyber trucks go up in flame.

Denis Boudreau: So, you know, your choice.

Roxanne Derhodge: So what's really very important, and I think I'm from Trinidad And Tobago, Came here when I was 17. And when I went into the corporate sector, right, being a Brown, for people that are listening that would not see me, years and years ago, I'm talking forty years ago, I was different in my context. And now I'm not. And with our organization, we have diversity where I can walk in and feel completely safe and be able to raise my hand and sit on a board and be able to be on a stage with anybody else. And I think you're so right.

Roxanne Derhodge: I can speak to myself. It's about that element that I can belong and raise my hand at any given point. To your point, organizations need to remember that because forty years ago when I came to Canada as an import student, I was very diverse back then. And then I was trying to fit in and now forty years later, it's oh yeah, it's so very important because you want to I like you, a little bit older than you, Denis, need to belong as well. And we need to attract the younger population.

Roxanne Derhodge: So for the people listening to us, I just want you to know that we are a place that creates that space so that you can come and enjoy your craft, figure out where your love in the speaking world is, and to come and hang out with some neat people, Denis. So Denis, it's been a pleasure as usual and such an important topic and so timely. And for all the people out there, the speakers bureaus and the people that are listening, I I really hear that message. What you've shared with us today has been very powerful. Thank you so much for spending the time with with us.

Denis Boudreau: It was my pleasure to spend that time with you. Thank you for having me again.

Roxanne Derhodge: Carla, any last words for Denis before we let him go along his merry way on this beautiful sunny day?

Carl Richards: Absolutely. Again, just to echo what Roxanne said, Denis, it's been a pleasure having this conversation with you and getting these insights and these ideas right out in front and sharing them with our audiences. It's really important information as it's been said, especially now to make sure that it's top of mind, not something that we just set aside because maybe the political or cultural or whatever it is, climate is saying, okay, we're not gonna touch this right now. It's still very important to be having these conversations and I can't think of a better person to make sure that they're bringing those conversations forward than somebody like yourself. We'll make sure all of your information to me is in the show notes, the link to your bio, sorry, the link to your book rather, and all of your coordinates as well.

Carl Richards: We're a member of an organization called CAPS. It's the Canadian Association of Professional Speakers. If you're already a member, great. We're glad you're here. If not, we'd love to have you.

Carl Richards: Canadianspeakers.org is where you can get that information. And there's a lot of information about our membership. And Roxanne mentioned the four pillars there. That information is there. There's so much for you to digest.

Carl Richards: And we are an inclusive organization. We'd love to have you as a part of our organization. If speaking and presenting and being a part of an organization like that is something that's important to you and is a way that you'd like to drive your business or your career forward, we'd love to have you consider membership coming and being a part of us. It's been fun, Roxanne, once again, with Behind the Mic. So we'll see you on our next episode of Behind the Mic.

Roxanne Derhodge: Take care. Bye, everyone.

Denis Boudreau: Good day, everyone.

Announcer: Thanks for listening to Behind the Mic presented in part by CAPS where members are driven by the four pillars of Learn, Share, Grow and Belong If you liked what you heard today, leave us a comment or a review. And so that you never miss an episode, please subscribe to our channel. Be sure to join us again soon for the next edition of behind the mic.